The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. - Ayn Rand
Glad I got my order in early. When I saw the paypal link, I had to hold my nose while placing the order and shower afterwards. I've been boycotting them and eBay for years because of their bigotry.
I've posted this on my blog too! And linked back.
Albert A Rasch
Fallow Deer: Hints and Tips
Chronicles Interview: JS Croner Part I
Thanks for spreading the word, Kevin.
But I've been anti-paypal for almost 10 years now. I was an early adopter, and one of the first ripped off with no cares from PayPal management.
I give people grief for buying and selling from eBay, who now owns PayPal, and is even more antigun.
They whine, and *keep on doing it*.
Don't. Use. PayPal. For. Anything.
Don't. Buy. On. eBay.
And I wish you luck, but this is par for the course here, and eBay and PayPal don't care how much "outrage" you generate.
"They whine, and *keep on doing it*."
I still use PayPal too, somewhat under duress. There's just one reason: What alternatives are there?
Does anyone know of a good alternate to PayPal? I do take some money in via my "donate" links on my site. I'm happy to pull the PP link, but it would be nice to replace with something else.
Gun owners need to quit patronizing Ebay, period. Whine all you want, but as long as you're putting money in their pockets, your words are empty.
Google has an online system, but they're anti-gun too.
GearPay was up for a while, and they swear they're coming back, but I don't know when.
I knew what was the point of this story as soon as I read the word "paypal." Dude, you really should have known this would happen.
As an online retailer of gun merchandise, I can attest that NONE of the simple paypal type internet payment portals (googlepay etc) willingly accept gun stuff. I do sell some gun stuff via paypal (hah! take that!) but I have to do it in sneakery. Which is why I'm not including my website with this post, lest I get busted. I've heard of funds being tied up for long periods of time for going against the pants-wetters.
Actually, I didn't realize that SA used PayPal, and they're planning on doing they're own credit-card processing soon - just not soon enough to help us this year.
Besides, SA isn't selling the GUN, they're selling RAFFLE TICKETS.
All the companies referenced are located in Kalifornia, and have to endure that kaliphate's rather onerous laws regarding firearms.
Google for certain is owned by anti-gun liberals. I use their service and *never* click a sponsored link or ad.
Ebay/PayPal is, AFAICT, merely limiting their liability, which is huge when it comes to firearms, when you consider the CA law and court system's history of clusterfucking the Second Amendment, when the payoff is relatively small in terms of potential profit.
In short, they have more to gain from the idiots selling Cabbage Patch Kids (to bigger idiots with more money than sense) than gun related purchases.
My 2 c.
I haven't any use for PayPal, but must have picked up an account to pay towards something once, I don't use it, I would rather support the USPS and my Credit Union and send a check, both for the raffle, and for the Gun Bloggers Rendevous and another contribution to Project Valour-IT which is really worthy.
PayPal is the problem, and getting the word out often and early will keep the Rendevous on, and the charity on target. Thanks for posting about the problem. Now I will contact PAY PAL TO COMPLAIN, just when I was trying to be a nice guy, motorcycle riding gun guy but nice.
As I recall, eBay got dragged into court. When the dust settled, CA had ruled that eBay had to obey their regulatory laws, including all that odious anti-civil rights legislation.
It's not PayPal's fault. You cannot expect them to risk their business, to gamble with their shareholder's money, in order to make this political point. They are a business, it's not their job to advocate, it's their job to make a profit. Which they can't do if some pissant bureaucrat decides they are a threat to the proper order of the People's Republic of Kalifornia. I cannot in good conscience boycott them for doing what they have to do to stay in business.
It's not their fight. You want this changed, you need to get the CA government off their ass.
*pauses to allow peals of laughter to subside*
I personally think you're going to see massive capital flight, both financial and human, from CA in the next decade. It's already started, but I'm predicting that massive amounts of the tech industry in particular is going to leave. Where will they go? Well, I think you're going to see them head for places like Texas, North Carolina, Virginia. Places that are pro-business and have the necessary infrastructure. Then of course the ex-Calis will begin voting Democrat.
Like locusts, they are, moving from field to field destroying everything.
What a BS "statement". Her regard for our intelligence is on par with her regard for our rights. Linked, and boycotted.
You don't have to go any farther than your email inbox to know what a bunch of jerks PayPal are. I get about 3-4 Paypal scams per month on the yahoo addy. The scammers wouldn't operate against Paypal if the oufit didn't let them.
There's a retro system that would work. One troop has to step up and run it, get a P.O. box and receive postal or commercial money orders. Soldier's Angels is a 501(c)(3), so any money sent is tax-deductible.
The donors have to take a little blame for this, also. If there is angst about donation if two or three keystrokes won't complete it, then the donors haven't gone the distance, either.
We can ALL do without Paypal. I've bought quite a few guns via online auctions, and I've never used the Paypal option. I use mostly money orders.
Anyone can handle money orders. A simple letter from the CEO or CFO of Soldier's Angels appointing the volunteer to receive money and it's done.
We wouldn't have won the war in the Pacific if we hadn't bypassed Japanese-held islands at every opportunity we could.
We can bypass PayPal as easily.
Title: Anti-Gun PayPal shuts down Soldiers' Angels Contributions
Excerpt: I received notice from Chuck Z of "From My Position...On the Way" that some gun bloggers were holding a charity shoot and raffling off a gun for Soldiers' Angels as part of their charity iniatives. Soldiers' Angels provided their PayPal system to t...
Blog name: BLACKFIVE
I'm with Britt and Dean on this one.
I don't think it's really an anti-gun deal, but rather trying to abide by California's messed up laws. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Just think of the potential lawsuits if someone buys a gun through eBay or pays for one through Pay Pal, and then the gun is used in a crime. Yeah, I know- it's the criminal, not the gun or the vendor... but you know how the mindset of the anti-gun crowd works.
Sad but true.
Good luck with the fundraising and raffle!
So? I want them more afraid of our bad opinion than the bad opinion of "the anti-gun crowd."
I'm tired of being, in Joe Huffman's parlance, a "gun-ni&&er."
Britt, Dean, AFSister:
You're trying to rationalize a why. But you're wrong.
They didn't do this because of CA law. They did it because of their politics.
There might have been some lawyer-esque fear of liability - which is what was claimed - but GunBroker and AuctionArms - formed after eBay forbade further gun sales (and their current policies are ad hoc and unclear on what's allowed) - disprove that handily.
That's probably the best part of this outcome - two other companies fill the space that otherwise eBay would have suffocated.
Guns used to be sold on eBay, just as they are now on AA and GB. Then one day, eBay decided that somehow this was helping criminals, nevermind the federal laws that were being followed, or not being able to point to a single time it had not occurred, and simply stopped. There was a lot of outrage at the time, and a lot of excuses from eBay and rationalizations. Then everybody kept right on listing all their accessories and whatnot on eBay, along with all their other auctions.
It's much simpler than even blaming government - which everybody here should know I've got little problem with. This is simply anti-gun businesses at work.
Personally I hoof it down to the USPS and send a USPS Money order.
Yes, it's less convenient, but since eBay and PayPal (I got ripped off on a eBay auction prior to the acquisition) didn't care and couldn't be bothered to fix the situation and give me my money back, I won't use 'em.
I've been a contributor to Soldier's Angels for some years now and was burned pretty badly early on by Pay Pal. I would NEVER use them again.
Soldier's Angels has been just fine with taking my checks.
It's pretty easy to support GOOD causes without using bad mechanisms.
Title: PayPal is no Pal to Soldiers
Excerpt: PayPal is no Pal to Soldiers Angels.
Kevin is livid.
Soldier’s Angels – the beneficiary of a raffle organized by Kevin (linked above) suspended their acceptance of contributions for Gunblogger Rendezvous raffle tickets, apparently over th...
Blog name: Traction Control
Just posted about this on my blog also with a link back. I'll try and buy a ticket if I can; that looks like a great gun.
Anti-gun, and anti-military. Good job, PayPal. Jerks.
I use paypal because I'm a super small (party of one) business and taking credit cards on my own wasn't cost effective. And I use Etsy as my 'shopping cart' and they use Paypal.
There IS another option though it's pretty small in comparison. It's called RME (Revolutionary Money Exchange) and I've been enrolled with them for over a year...but haven't had anyone use it to pay me yet.
I think Amazon also offers some sort of shopping cart/ credit card system. 1000 Markets uses them and it works really well, but they don't do international.
Anyway...it's disheartening to hear Paypal doing this. :( I hope they will change their minds.
Linked. I already avoided them most of the time, from now on no PayPal at all. And I just closed the account. Screw 'em, I'll mail a check or whatever.
linked from my blog. i have a VERY small readership, but i'll do what i can to spread the word.
Thanks for getting the word out on this. Paypal account closed with the following reason listed:
Pay Pal has acted despicalbly with regards to pulling service to a fund raiser for Soldier's Angels - Project Valour-IT.
Valour-IT was created in memory of SFC William V. Ziegenfuss, helps provide voice-controlled/adaptive laptop computers and other technology to support Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines recovering from hand wounds and other severe injuries.
Your company shut down ALL DONATIONS to the project because of idealogical differences with a raffle being conducted. You did so without contacting Soldier's Angels. You did so in a way that was inconsistent with your own policies. And you did so in a way that was unnecessarily punitive.
I will not work with a company that acts so despicably towards military veterans.
I just spent a lot of time on hold and with paypal.
In the end I was directed to legal agreements/acceptable use.
"relate to sales of (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (e) items that are considered obscene, (f) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (g) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (h) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (i) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law"
Look at h.
"involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law."
"Service Requiring Pre-Approval Contact Information
Collecting donations as a charity or non-profit organization; dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards; selling stocks, bonds, securities, options, futures or an investment interest in any entity or property; or providing escrow services. "
I am told that a letter needs to be sent to email@example.com
So if someone from Soldier's Angels makes contact. this may be resolved.
I've used paypal since it's inception and have always just clicked on "accept terms" so this was a surprize to me as well.
Wright, Edward M
Former SGT 3rd class
But PayPal is already well aware that Soldiers' Angels is a charity organization. I doubt that they've never run a raffle before, either.
And they're not selling a gun, they're selling raffle tickets. As one commenter put it over at Castle Argghhh:
Using *that* particular line of reasoning, every volunteer fireman selling raffle tickets for a Thanksgiving turkey should be required to have a food-handler's certificate...
you can add this link to your story:
Posted in forum comments, and linked, here:
[...] PayPal is an evil, anti-gun eBay minion [...]
Any thoughts on hitting paypal where they think--in their money belt? Could they be sued by Soldiers Angels/VALOUR IT for lost income? Especially since they failed to notify the organization when they stopped processing donations? Just a vindictive thought. . . .
Take a glance at the eBay firearms policy. There are many violations of it presently on eBay. They seem more strict in policy than in losing money during enforcement.
Thanks, Pandora! You too, Ride Fast.
Please add my blog to the list. Couldn't get to posting until just now.
Links up - suck to be a ni***r these days, doesn't it?
AuctionArms.com is based in Nevada, GunBroker is based in Atlanta. It's a huge difference. Now, like I said in my first comment, I believe that the tech companies will leave CA soon, and perhaps leave this country entirely. Why, when all your business goes out over the Internet, would you not want to (not) pay Delaware or Dubai tax rates? Maybe a boycott will hasten the process. Or maybe not.
Personally the only time I've ever used PayPal was to make my Christmas donation to Soldier's Angels. I don't buy many things from non-Amazon websites.
The days when companies had to keep their customers happy above all are long gone. This is bailout nation. Staying on the good side of politicians and bureaucrats is worth far more then losing the business of gun owners.
The thing is, businesses are not on the anti-statist side of the American political divide. They can't be. Because it's too easy to whip up enough outrage for punitive taxation and commerce crushing regulation. It will not be popular anytime in the foreseeable future to defend corporate profits. It's always popular to go after the fat cats, and so the fat cats cozy up to the bureaucrats, because they want their companies to survive.
I feel bad for eBay because you have a company which is being forced to shut off a source of revenue due to political interference in the marketplace. I think we should be working to get the government off their back, not railing at them for choosing their best option of two really bad ones.
In the South, the segregation of transportation went through after a ferocious campaign against it led by the then privately owned bus and tram lines. Since blacks were less likely to own a car, these companies were being forced to alienate more then half of their customer base or face fines and jail time. Surprisingly (or not), most went out of business, to be replaced by public transportation supported by tax dollars.
So the question then becomes, if the goal is being able to buy guns on eBay with payment by PayPal, then what course of action is more likely to achieve that goal. Should we boycott PayPal, or should we try to get the collar off of their neck?
I called Paypal...
After I told the nice young lady about my Marine son, and the good that S/A does for our troops, I had her in tears. She promised to read what the Angels do for our men and women, and promised to get word up the ladder. She even read back to me what she wrote, (and it was great). Be nice to the operators, but be stern in your conviction...We'll get them to change.
Given that this is PayPal we are talking about, I cannot say as though I am terribly surprised... That said, it still sucks, it still is stupid as hell, and it still deserves to be spread far and wide. I did my part, for what little it will amount to.
Title: Paypal Costs Charity
Excerpt: Soldier’s Angels is one of the few charities I’m supportive of. They provide help of inestimable value to service members such as those injured during their duties. Soldier’s Angels uses Paypal for convenient online payments.
Blog name: Gay Military Life
Did my part, over at Guns Net and again on my own site.
Thanks again to everyone!
You're entirely right where they are.
And totally wrong as to the motivation.
This isn't the first time it has come up. It's not new - and while I wish Kevin well with his attempt to get the gang of theives to stop their bigotry and spread their immorals to the gun-owning community - I've watched others march down this road before.
If they were doing this due to CA law, believe me, that would have been their first copout. It's never been brought up. This was political.
should we try to get the collar off of their neck?
First, you have to stop assuming your presumptions are the reasons in effect, then you can hope to evaluate and plan. As long as you're presuming incorrectly that this was due to government influence, you'll continue to plan incorrectly.
I wish Kevin and others luck - but my boycott is due to their bad business practices - which this doesn't deal with. :)
I remember back in 2001-2002 when PayPal started shutting down the accounts of dealers that posted on ar15.com.
Kevin, this is not old news, and it isn't due to any fear of litigation, it is agenda driven.
I cancelled my account back then, and refuse to do business with either them or EBay.
Like Unix-Jedi has said, I wish you luck in your effort to get them to change, but caution you that many have tried before, to no avail.
I agree with others who've said, "DON'T USE PAYPAL OR EBAY".
Get the word out to gun owners. Tell them that PayPal is anti-gun, and encourage to never, ever use either company.
What if there's no alternative? There's always an alternative, including buy from another vendor. If we don't act, PayPal and its ilk will continue to screw us.
Posted it on my blog, called PayPal and told them exactly what I thought of them and their policy, and I'm buying my raffle tickets tomorrow.
They apparently handled my raffle ticket purchase. Just checked PP and it's shown as my transaction for the last month. How can I find out if SA got it and registered me?
(Bob: Email me - firstname.lastname@example.org - and I'll forward your information to the relevant person at Soldiers' Angels who will contact you directly. - Ed.)
Paypal is owned by eBay, and their Press Relations department is at (408 ) 376-7458. I got their voice mail, but (politely) left a message along these lines:
- My name, and phone number.
- I pointed out that there's a PR problem brewing for them that they probably don't know about, involving them cutting off a charity for wounded soldiers.
- My blog so they can get the details if they didn't want to call me back.
Please give them a call, but be polite. They don't want headlines on this, and a few voice mails will put this #1 on the To Do list for the Marketing VP tomorrow.
Huh - no idea how the phone number turned all smiley-face like. It's a (408 ) number.
(Fixed. - Ed.)
Weird. How bout "It's a four - oh - eight number"?
Haloscan replaces certain smiley face combinations with graphic versions. The 8 and ) got caught by their dumb filter.
The number is: 408-376-7458
Or let's see if this trick works: (408) 376-7458
I can't use preview plus the trick. Trying again, just because:
(I replaced the second parenthesis with )
For what it's worth I also posted on my blogspot.
PayPoop used to be here in Downtown, then the got rolled-up and moved over to the cheap-rent eBay campus over in Campbell.
In our another life we rented a small office in our building to a little startup called Hotmail.
Where have all the flowers gone?
Title: Paypal bans fundraising for wounded veterans
Excerpt: This is pathetic.Â How far will anti-gun religious fanatics go?Â See here also
Blog name: Billoblog Â®
Pay Pal account CLOSED!!!!!
I am also considering closing my EBay account. Anything I can buy on EBay I can get on Gunbroker. And the guys on Gunbroker take personal checks!!!! Imagine that!!! People that aren't in a big hurry, hurry, rush, rush to get your cash.
And I can buy bullets, and other fun things that discharge them!!!!
OMG, I just went to the site they host about Soidiers' Angels. What hypocrits. Pushing their product using a charity and then shutting them down because a donor sets up a raffle of a weapon.
They must contract with the MSMs fact checkers when they proof items on their site.
Now I gotta go buy raffle tickets! Where?
Click the ticket link on the left sidebar - all the information is there. They're taking phone orders.
Kevin, got your back on this as well.
Thanks, Nicki. You're on the list!
actively thwarting efforts to support the military is worse than doing nothing ... and doing nothing is unacceptable.
vets are putting their lives on the line and these varmints won't even send bandaids ...
Dern Kevin - on the vacay and missed the controversy. Please note that third tier blog anothergunguy.blogspot.com has posted some anger along the lines of "Puck Faypal. I'll send a check."
Glad I could be of help and I'll do what I can to spread the word in the conservative blogosphere at large, and I may send this to a few milbloggers I know too.
Just pisses me off that PayPal took a great charitable event like this and took a huge dump on it, and due to their ridiculous behavior, Soldiers Angels at large.
It's very generous of you to offer up that Para for donation, BTW.
Title: Gah, stupid Paypal
Excerpt: Though I haven’t talked about it a lot lately, I’m a firm supporter of the 2nd Amendment.
This needs to be known, Paypal shut down a raffle Soldiers’ Angels were running. Because Paypal is run by anti-gun bigots.
Full scoop at the i...
Blog name: Solarvoid
Hi Kevin & Co.
We've got the raffle back up at Lucky Gunner Ammo...no PayPal!
The raffle went back up last night about 12 hours ago. So far, 25 raffle tickets sold. Great start!
Please spread the word about the new location for purchasing the raffle tickets online: http://www.luckygunner.com/project-valour-raffle-fundraiser-2009