... I learned that international respect for America is directly proportional to America's own respect for its president.
It's both ironic and self-fulfilling. Progressives constantly point to America's declining position in the worldwide popularity contest and blame that on Bush, seem to have no idea that they are feeding the America-hatred, and then it all just perpetuates.
My husband, who is one of those "Americans born in another country," recalls how beloved Reagan was in Finland, especially given the circumstances of the Cold War and their proximity to the USSR.
Re Mark's question, I saw an interesting doc tonight on the JFK assassination, which essentially said that Fidel Castro was responsible. Oswald was recruited as the operative who pulled the trigger. It basically wrote off any involvement by LBJ (he apparently greatly feared for his life after JFK was killed). Unfortunately, the doc didn't address any involvement the Mafia might have had.
One thing I'm continually struck by: Immigrants to this nation who were "Americans born in other countries" seem to have a firmer grip on what it is to be American than many of our native-born fellow citizens.
But isn't that the way it usually works? Converts decide to do things for a reason and have to earn their identity; the natural-born folks inherit their identity and don't have to earn it.
Converts to Christianity, for example, are statistically more likely than the norm to be missionaries than those born into the faith; converts to Judaism are more likely than the norm to be observant and know their Hebrew; and so forth.
Kevin, there is an extraordinary amount of evidence that our country, in the 1960s, basically behaved like a bananna republic. In every other country in the world, people know why Jack, Martin, and Bobby were killed.
In every other country in the world, people think conspiracy first and lone nut second. They are wise enough to know that the lone nut stuff is...well....nutty. We seem to have an incredibly difficult time admitting that coup d'etats can actually happen here....everywhere else but never here...oh no...we're better and if you say we're not than you are a (what is it again?) Oh yeah
1. Looney
2. Vaccant (thanks DJ)
3. an America Hater
4. a Communist
5. a fool.
Pick one or mix and match!
If you want to do some serious research on these assasinations, I can point you in the right direction...no Elvis is Alive or We Never Went to the Moon garbage at all. But you have to have an open mind....
As far as the column from the Romanian, ah, now I see. It's all communist propaganda. That's it! Kevin, you are trying to make something perfectly black and white that is so convulated it's ridiculous.
Sure. The war that we are all supposed to support President Bush on--no matter what--it's not as simple as WWII was. Who are we fighting? Shia? Sunni? Al Qaeda? All three?
And why are there more "private" security troops in Iraq than US troops?
"And why are there more "private" security troops in Iraq than US troops?"
Hah. Not bloody likely.
Although there probably are more private security troops in Washington DC than soldiers in Iraq. The guys are everywhere.
Kevin, can I tell you I'm so glad I don't have my own trolls? I think we should regard unleashing tireless cognitive dissonance in public as some kind of assault.
I am not a troll. I don't post on many other sites but this one. My main goals here are to learn, reflect, and hopefully figure out why our country is so divided.
I agree with Mark. He is not exhibiting trollish behavior. He's just disagreeing, which is good, because there's nothing more boring than an echo-chamber in the comments section.
I'll admit to... wry overstatement. But I think adherence to nutty conspiracy theories disqualifies one from being taken seriously. (I'll admit. I used to give them credence, too. When I was in high school.)
And foolishly misrepresenting data is not okay in my book. There may be more contractors in Iraq than soldiers, but what does that matter? What do the contractors do? Build things. You object to things being built? Meals being cooked? Do you object to money being introduced into the Iraqi economy, giving people pride in their work and a reason to fight for their homes and liberty?
Mark, you say there are too many questions, with gravity in your voice I'm sure, but your questions all seem to run along these lines-
They say there are no stupid questions, but that's not true. The stupid questions are the ones to which you should've already known the answer.
Cognitive dissonance, thy name is Markadelphia.
Still, sorry about the troll thing. I was outta line.
Also conspiracy theories are locked in a vicioua circle with anti-americanism. Even seemingly innocent ones contribute co a climate of distrust and doubt.
Thanks, Sarah. And I would appreciate any heads up if I ever step out of line.
Dan, I would recommend any book by Jim Marrs. You could start with Rule By Secrecy. His books are always prefaced with "Prove Me Wrong." So do it. Prove him (and me) wrong.
I don't think it's immature to question the official story on anything. Anyone with a basic knowledge of history knows that kings are killed...conspiracies and coup d'etats have occurred for millenia. To say that they NEVER have happened here, never will happen here and anyone that thinks so is an idiot and/or an America Hater...? Sheesh....
So, as far as the cognitive dissonance thing goes...it works for you, as well, Dan. You believe that all conspiracy theories are nutty, right? When information is presented to you that could possibly lend some credence to these theories you filter said information that conflicts with what you already believe in order to ignore that information, and reinforce what you believe.
I think there are at least two definitions of conspiracy we can use here. There's your petit conspiracy, the average, small cabal of people doing dastardly deeds. Nobody would question their existence or impact on history, viz. the Lincoln assassination. Conspiracy? Yes. Just ask William H. Seward.
Then there's the grand mal conspiracy involving the trilateral commission, the CIA, Castro, the military-industrial complex, the FBI, the Campfire Girls, the Ark of the Covenant and the Idaho state legislature. Yes, this kind of theory appealed to me when I was thirteen. I grew out of it. After that, I was in to music for a little while.
You know how I know this stuff is a load of bunk? The magic bullet that puts it all in focus? Because it depends on the silent complicity of civil servants. I've been a civil servant, and I've worked with civil servants. They are often tired, petty, uncreative people, trading joy and freedom for their soul-crushing sinecures. They don't conceal evidence out of some nefarious purpose. They file it in their office desk from whence it will never get archived where it belongs. Because of a conspiracy? No, because they were hired for a particular skill-set, and archive management was not part of that skill-set, and the person assigned to oversee the whole archiving thing works two buildings over and lacks robust management support. Welcome to government. Also, because when their boss gives them a 3 on their performance evaluation, rather than the 4.5 they think they deserve, they'll blab the whole 'Hoffa paid me to slip mind-altering chemicals into the Warren Commission's coffee pot' thing to the first journalist they can find.
You propose I read a "Hidden History That Connects the Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, and the Great Pyramids." I propose that I don't need to. You'll say it's because I can't refute it/fear the truth/am a hypocrite/etc.
I say this is where I get off, because this is an argument that will go nowhere. Not because you're impolite, or ill-meaning. Just gullible. (You can say the same about me, I'm sure. That's why the conversation's going nowhere.)
Oh, and freemasons? Not masters of the planetary power strings. Retired plumbers from Safford, Arizona and die-makers from Rock Fort, Illinois, who add a little fantasy and dignity to their lives by putting on aprons and declaring themselves 'Princes of the Royal Secret one evening a month.' Nice guys. Do good work for charity. Don't have any contacts with space aliens.
I don't believe everything I read by Jim Marrs but he is on the right track on some things.
Your example of the civil servent also works the other way as well. Fearing for his/her existence, any sort of threat backed up by with monetary compensation usually will result in silence.
How things are kept so secret, though....hmm....that's easy. Check out what I just put on Phelps's blog..it is comment #20.
Intereseting. But the problem I have with step 2 of your formula is that I am unaware of any preposterous framing for any of the conspiracies we've been talking about here. Can you give an example?
Well, Mexigogue made a typo, if you note it on Phelps' blog. I thought he was saying that there were people who thought Clinton died and was replaced by a doppleganger a la the whole Paul is dead thing with the Beatles, which is why I brought up the formula. It happens all the time on the news or in print. They always have to have a professional debunker...
Mexigogue was actually talking about how many people have mysteriously died around the Clintons in the 1990s. Coincidence? Doubt it. There is something to it, I'm sure. Hillary, after all, was the first female to attend a Bilderberger meeting. The only person I see as more powerful, at present, than Hillary in DC is Dick Cheney.
I don't think there has been much preposterous framing here--although I am called "looney" or "out of touch with reality" because, for example, I think Obama has a giant target on this back, not because he is black, but because he is a unifier.
I also seem to recall a post put up right around the VT shootings linking to a blog which claimed people who believed that JFK was killed by the military industrial complex also HAVE to believe in every other loony theory like we never went to the moon. Silly, indeed.
In the end, I take everything with a grain of salt and do my own research. I think Jim Marrs is dead on about a lot of stuff but he is way off on other things.
Dan, get your facts straight. There is no such organization as "Campfire Girls". They'd already been co-ed for some time when my son was a Bluebird 20 years ago.
I think I found the cave of the Moonbats, and the trickle of kool-aid that drips from the cavern walls. It's dark as pitch but the kool-aid lets you see in the dark...
I'm a bit confused. The way your formula works is that it prevents a secret from being leaked by linking it with some looney thing like aliens. In the context of the JFK assassination conspiracy, I was wondering how this figured in.
By the way, as much as I would have liked to believe it, the thing about the Clintons has been debunked. Snopes crushed it.
And if Obama has a giant target on this back I think it's because he's an inexperienced, leftist politician without gravitas who has the middle name Hussein and who attended a madrassa as a child. (Who is he unifying?)
Sarah, I was out of town so I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your question. While aliens don’t figure in to the JFK thing (although there are some bizarre theories out there), I think you can throw as many possible culprits (Mob, Castro, Russians, LBJ, Military Industrial Complex) at people until they throw up their arms and say, “Enough, Lee Harvey Oswald did it.” You keep something secret by muddying the waters.
Until recently, one would see a news story about a UFO and then Elvis would invariably be worked into the picture. That is what a mean about the loony linking. Now, it’s different because you have things like the O Hare airport sighting being reported seriously on CNN. This is a good thing because they still haven’t adequately explained what hundreds of people saw last Nov 7th.
As far as Obama goes, read his book, The Audacity of Hope. That will explain to you why he has a big target on his back.
Note:
All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost;
references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>
JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2007/08/now-this-is-freaking-fascinating.html (29 comments)
Tentative mapping of comments to original article, corrections solicited.
... I learned that international respect for America is directly proportional to America's own respect for its president.
It's both ironic and self-fulfilling. Progressives constantly point to America's declining position in the worldwide popularity contest and blame that on Bush, seem to have no idea that they are feeding the America-hatred, and then it all just perpetuates.
My husband, who is one of those "Americans born in another country," recalls how beloved Reagan was in Finland, especially given the circumstances of the Cold War and their proximity to the USSR.
Re Mark's question, I saw an interesting doc tonight on the JFK assassination, which essentially said that Fidel Castro was responsible. Oswald was recruited as the operative who pulled the trigger. It basically wrote off any involvement by LBJ (he apparently greatly feared for his life after JFK was killed). Unfortunately, the doc didn't address any involvement the Mafia might have had.
Kevin writes:
But isn't that the way it usually works? Converts decide to do things for a reason and have to earn their identity; the natural-born folks inherit their identity and don't have to earn it.Converts to Christianity, for example, are statistically more likely than the norm to be missionaries than those born into the faith; converts to Judaism are more likely than the norm to be observant and know their Hebrew; and so forth.
Kevin, there is an extraordinary amount of evidence that our country, in the 1960s, basically behaved like a bananna republic. In every other country in the world, people know why Jack, Martin, and Bobby were killed.
In every other country in the world, people think conspiracy first and lone nut second. They are wise enough to know that the lone nut stuff is...well....nutty. We seem to have an incredibly difficult time admitting that coup d'etats can actually happen here....everywhere else but never here...oh no...we're better and if you say we're not than you are a (what is it again?) Oh yeah
1. Looney
2. Vaccant (thanks DJ)
3. an America Hater
4. a Communist
5. a fool.
Pick one or mix and match!
If you want to do some serious research on these assasinations, I can point you in the right direction...no Elvis is Alive or We Never Went to the Moon garbage at all. But you have to have an open mind....
As far as the column from the Romanian, ah, now I see. It's all communist propaganda. That's it! Kevin, you are trying to make something perfectly black and white that is so convulated it's ridiculous.
Mark:
"convulated"?
"I learned that international respect for America is directly proportional to America's own respect for its president."
So we agree when we elect an idiot.
Makes sense.
Sure. The war that we are all supposed to support President Bush on--no matter what--it's not as simple as WWII was. Who are we fighting? Shia? Sunni? Al Qaeda? All three?
And why are there more "private" security troops in Iraq than US troops?
Too many questions...
THAT was genius. America NEEDS to know these things. How to make them listen?
This article was also available for free on the opinionjournal.com pages last week...
The writer is a "retired" KGB general.
Never forget "Maskirovka", or deliberate deception. The essay sounds good, but I considered the source.
Oddly enough, from my studies, WWII was not as straightforward as the propaganda of the time, and even modern day, would suggest.
"And why are there more "private" security troops in Iraq than US troops?"
Hah. Not bloody likely.
Although there probably are more private security troops in Washington DC than soldiers in Iraq. The guys are everywhere.
Kevin, can I tell you I'm so glad I don't have my own trolls? I think we should regard unleashing tireless cognitive dissonance in public as some kind of assault.
Dan, I stand corrected. It is more contractors with an unknown number of private security troops in Iraq. Here is the link
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-na-private4jul04,0,5419234,full.story?coll=la-home-center
I am not a troll. I don't post on many other sites but this one. My main goals here are to learn, reflect, and hopefully figure out why our country is so divided.
Oh, and I found this site because Kevin posted on mine first--I was not out "trolling" for arguments.
I agree with Mark. He is not exhibiting trollish behavior. He's just disagreeing, which is good, because there's nothing more boring than an echo-chamber in the comments section.
I'll admit to... wry overstatement. But I think adherence to nutty conspiracy theories disqualifies one from being taken seriously. (I'll admit. I used to give them credence, too. When I was in high school.)
And foolishly misrepresenting data is not okay in my book. There may be more contractors in Iraq than soldiers, but what does that matter? What do the contractors do? Build things. You object to things being built? Meals being cooked? Do you object to money being introduced into the Iraqi economy, giving people pride in their work and a reason to fight for their homes and liberty?
Mark, you say there are too many questions, with gravity in your voice I'm sure, but your questions all seem to run along these lines-
They say there are no stupid questions, but that's not true. The stupid questions are the ones to which you should've already known the answer.
Cognitive dissonance, thy name is Markadelphia.
Still, sorry about the troll thing. I was outta line.
Also conspiracy theories are locked in a vicioua circle with anti-americanism. Even seemingly innocent ones contribute co a climate of distrust and doubt.
Thanks, Sarah. And I would appreciate any heads up if I ever step out of line.
Dan, I would recommend any book by Jim Marrs. You could start with Rule By Secrecy. His books are always prefaced with "Prove Me Wrong." So do it. Prove him (and me) wrong.
I don't think it's immature to question the official story on anything. Anyone with a basic knowledge of history knows that kings are killed...conspiracies and coup d'etats have occurred for millenia. To say that they NEVER have happened here, never will happen here and anyone that thinks so is an idiot and/or an America Hater...? Sheesh....
So, as far as the cognitive dissonance thing goes...it works for you, as well, Dan. You believe that all conspiracy theories are nutty, right? When information is presented to you that could possibly lend some credence to these theories you filter said information that conflicts with what you already believe in order to ignore that information, and reinforce what you believe.
I think there are at least two definitions of conspiracy we can use here. There's your petit conspiracy, the average, small cabal of people doing dastardly deeds. Nobody would question their existence or impact on history, viz. the Lincoln assassination. Conspiracy? Yes. Just ask William H. Seward.
Then there's the grand mal conspiracy involving the trilateral commission, the CIA, Castro, the military-industrial complex, the FBI, the Campfire Girls, the Ark of the Covenant and the Idaho state legislature. Yes, this kind of theory appealed to me when I was thirteen. I grew out of it. After that, I was in to music for a little while.
You know how I know this stuff is a load of bunk? The magic bullet that puts it all in focus? Because it depends on the silent complicity of civil servants. I've been a civil servant, and I've worked with civil servants. They are often tired, petty, uncreative people, trading joy and freedom for their soul-crushing sinecures. They don't conceal evidence out of some nefarious purpose. They file it in their office desk from whence it will never get archived where it belongs. Because of a conspiracy? No, because they were hired for a particular skill-set, and archive management was not part of that skill-set, and the person assigned to oversee the whole archiving thing works two buildings over and lacks robust management support. Welcome to government. Also, because when their boss gives them a 3 on their performance evaluation, rather than the 4.5 they think they deserve, they'll blab the whole 'Hoffa paid me to slip mind-altering chemicals into the Warren Commission's coffee pot' thing to the first journalist they can find.
You propose I read a "Hidden History That Connects the Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, and the Great Pyramids." I propose that I don't need to. You'll say it's because I can't refute it/fear the truth/am a hypocrite/etc.
I say this is where I get off, because this is an argument that will go nowhere. Not because you're impolite, or ill-meaning. Just gullible. (You can say the same about me, I'm sure. That's why the conversation's going nowhere.)
Oh, and freemasons? Not masters of the planetary power strings. Retired plumbers from Safford, Arizona and die-makers from Rock Fort, Illinois, who add a little fantasy and dignity to their lives by putting on aprons and declaring themselves 'Princes of the Royal Secret one evening a month.' Nice guys. Do good work for charity. Don't have any contacts with space aliens.
Stonecutters, on the other hand...
Sarah, please give us some warning before you do that. I nearly blew my hot tea all over my screen.
I don't believe everything I read by Jim Marrs but he is on the right track on some things.
Your example of the civil servent also works the other way as well. Fearing for his/her existence, any sort of threat backed up by with monetary compensation usually will result in silence.
How things are kept so secret, though....hmm....that's easy. Check out what I just put on Phelps's blog..it is comment #20.
http://phelps.donotremove.net/?p=1082#comment-2334
Mark,
Intereseting. But the problem I have with step 2 of your formula is that I am unaware of any preposterous framing for any of the conspiracies we've been talking about here. Can you give an example?
DJ,
Sorry. Heh. :-)
Well, Mexigogue made a typo, if you note it on Phelps' blog. I thought he was saying that there were people who thought Clinton died and was replaced by a doppleganger a la the whole Paul is dead thing with the Beatles, which is why I brought up the formula. It happens all the time on the news or in print. They always have to have a professional debunker...
Mexigogue was actually talking about how many people have mysteriously died around the Clintons in the 1990s. Coincidence? Doubt it. There is something to it, I'm sure. Hillary, after all, was the first female to attend a Bilderberger meeting. The only person I see as more powerful, at present, than Hillary in DC is Dick Cheney.
I don't think there has been much preposterous framing here--although I am called "looney" or "out of touch with reality" because, for example, I think Obama has a giant target on this back, not because he is black, but because he is a unifier.
I also seem to recall a post put up right around the VT shootings linking to a blog which claimed people who believed that JFK was killed by the military industrial complex also HAVE to believe in every other loony theory like we never went to the moon. Silly, indeed.
In the end, I take everything with a grain of salt and do my own research. I think Jim Marrs is dead on about a lot of stuff but he is way off on other things.
Dan, get your facts straight. There is no such organization as "Campfire Girls". They'd already been co-ed for some time when my son was a Bluebird 20 years ago.
"His books are always prefaced with 'Prove Me Wrong.' So do it. Prove him (and me) wrong."
I am the Son of God.
Well, go ahead. Prove me wrong.
I think I found the cave of the Moonbats, and the trickle of kool-aid that drips from the cavern walls. It's dark as pitch but the kool-aid lets you see in the dark...
That was inspiring. Thank you for finding stuff like this and sharing.
Well done.
Mark,
I'm a bit confused. The way your formula works is that it prevents a secret from being leaked by linking it with some looney thing like aliens. In the context of the JFK assassination conspiracy, I was wondering how this figured in.
By the way, as much as I would have liked to believe it, the thing about the Clintons has been debunked. Snopes crushed it.
And if Obama has a giant target on this back I think it's because he's an inexperienced, leftist politician without gravitas who has the middle name Hussein and who attended a madrassa as a child. (Who is he unifying?)
Sarah, I was out of town so I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your question. While aliens don’t figure in to the JFK thing (although there are some bizarre theories out there), I think you can throw as many possible culprits (Mob, Castro, Russians, LBJ, Military Industrial Complex) at people until they throw up their arms and say, “Enough, Lee Harvey Oswald did it.” You keep something secret by muddying the waters.
Until recently, one would see a news story about a UFO and then Elvis would invariably be worked into the picture. That is what a mean about the loony linking. Now, it’s different because you have things like the O Hare airport sighting being reported seriously on CNN. This is a good thing because they still haven’t adequately explained what hundreds of people saw last Nov 7th.
As far as Obama goes, read his book, The Audacity of Hope. That will explain to you why he has a big target on his back.
Note: All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost; references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>