JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2007/02/sport-of-kings.html (31 comments)

  Tentative mapping of comments to original article, corrections solicited.

jsid-1172111616-551364  elliot at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:33:36 +0000

You might be surprised, but I think this is a great post.

You don't say you want the guy destroyed, you want him to understand your point. You make a reasoned, persuasive argument, not threats...free speech at its best.

jsid-1172112079-551365  Steve at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:41:19 +0000

Thank you!

jsid-1172113306-551366  Ironbear at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:01:46 +0000

Great post, as elliot said, with one caveat. [You knew there'd be one, right? ;)]

"And I agree. But it's essential not that he just say "I screwed up," he must understand WHAT his screwup was. Otherwise he's apologizing for the wrong thing, and that does no good at all." - Kevin Baker

No. That's only part of the equation, and the smallest part of it.

Apology is just words. The critical thing is to make it right when a harm is done. Ammends are actions, not words.

Yes, he has to understand what his screwup was before he can make it right, or even see a need to make it right - but without the action, the "understanding" is just as empty as the apology.

S'all right. We've long had our allies be our worst enemies. We're used to it. We have the NRA working against us - what's a Zumbo in comparison?

jsid-1172115950-551367  Kevin Baker at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:45:50 +0000


Thanks. But bear in mind: I don't mind if he's destroyed if he doesn't get my point.

jsid-1172117223-551368  EricWS at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:07:03 +0000

Elliot, as a citizen, I CANNOT breach the protection offered to Mr. Zumbo by the First Amendment. That Amendment, like all the others, limits what the United States of America can do to Mr. Zumbo.

Not Remington, or Cabela's, or Mossy Oak, or the members of AR15.com, or me.

All of us can say anything we like about the man. We can use our personal powers of the purse and pen to punish him or his associates. You do not feel that Mr. Zumbo deserves to be punished? Fine. I feel that if a man, who does not know me from Adam, calls me a TERRORIST, for owning a gun of an APPEARANCE he dislikes, that there should be personal reprecussions. Reprecussions inflicted on him by other citizens, through their personal authority.

That is how America used to work Elliot. This is the modern incarnation of shunning. Zumbo violated the mores of one of the cultures in which he claimed membership. No one who sees himself as a "staunch defender" of the Second Amendment should expect to get away with calling THOUSANDS of other defenders criminals, or calling for the STATE to use its authority to inflict his will upon them, and suffer no consequences.

jsid-1172118729-551370  Sebastian at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:32:09 +0000

Great post! For me, if Zumbo gets on board with doing some second amendment outreach to hunters, I'm willing to put this behind us. He could be really useful in that regard.

But will he? I kind of doubt it. The sad part is, it would be nice if we lived in a world where we could just hunt and shoot, without having to worry what ninnies were around the corner wanting to put an end to it all.

jsid-1172123012-551372  countertop at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 05:43:32 +0000

Great post

One of the most difficult tasks I face as a parent is teaching my son right from wrong.

I don't get mad at him if he screws up, I get mad at him when he makes the same mistakes repeatedly. However, whenever he does screw up, I force him to evaluate what occurred and what the result was. If he says he's sorry, he's then quizzed on what exactly he is apologizing for, and isn't out of trouble until he can show me that he understands what he did to screw up and what precisly is wrong with his action for it to rise to the level of screw up.

Pretty weighty stuff for a 5 year old, but so far, he's had no problem figuring it out. If he can, I don't see why Zumbo, who is at least 60 years his senior, can't.

jsid-1172133538-485107  Trackback at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:38:58 +0000

Trackback message
Title: Tom Gresham sees the light
Excerpt: Today, however, Kevin of The Smallest Minority points to an interview that Tom Gresham did with Zumbo shortly after the flail-ex commenced. I thought about sending Gresham an email so I went to his site to see if he had a contact address. What I foun...
Blog name: Captain of a Crew of One

jsid-1172147894-551376  Sailorcurt at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:38:14 +0000

Gresham seems to have seen the light:

I was in the process of writing more but it became too long. I'll write a post on it when I get a chance and shoot you a trackback.

jsid-1172149948-551378  staghounds at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:12:28 +0000

In the interview, I don't see Mr. Zumbo saying that hunters and ALL types of shooters should join together. That was his greatest moral and tactical offense- that he PREACHED division among shooters. This is not heresy, it is the tactic and tool of our enemies.

It works, too. Ask a (former, there aren't any more) British pistol owner about the way the shotgun shooters abandoned their fellow gun owners.

I DID hear Zumbo and Mr. Gresham insult those of us who disagreed, I heard them setting up the patriotism diversion, I heard them saying he should get a pass because it was an "unofficial" blog, and I heard them both misdescribe what Zumbo originally said.

Gresham didn't honestly describe the statements, and Zumbo didn't say he was wrong or deny their truth.

I hope Mr. Gresham thinks helping his friend was worth his integrity.

jsid-1172151095-551381  Peet at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:31:35 +0000

I read the original blog post, the "apology", and most of the comments. My mind is still reeling.

Most of his defenders in the comments used the "we all make mistakes" meme. Sorry, but Peet making some half-baked "ban them" comment on a blog is way different from the seasoned, professional writer and TV personality doing same. That excuse does not wash.

How does Mr. Zumbo read any of the comments to his original blog entry and not know the "apology" as written isn't gonna make the grade?

More, how does someone that ignorant (by his own admission) then get stupid enough to mislabel (assault rifle), mis-characterize (terrorist weapon), and call for a ban on rifles he just admitted he know nothing about?

That just baffles me. However, it does seem proof-positive that one can put ones foot in one's mouth while at the same time engaging in a D.I.Y. colonoscopy...


jsid-1172153214-551382  the pistolero at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:06:54 +0000

Regarding Zumbo's plea of ignorance -- At Tam's place, I believe, Billy Beck made the point that Zumbo had been writing for some 40-plus years, and that "it was his job to know exactly what we're talking about." All I can say to that is that I agree completely.

jsid-1172159789-551385  DJ at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:56:29 +0000

His name will likely become a verb, an eptithet, and a rallying cry. That's not the way I would want history to remember me.

OK, it's over, more or less. The astonishing power of using the internet is revealed and yet another presidential campaign has already started. How do we use this event to rally the troops, as it were?

jsid-1172159820-551386  Unix-Jedi at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:57:00 +0000


Bane's conversation with Zumbo you were looking for.

Sorry, but "staunch defenders of gun rights" don't go using words like "ban." Period. I don't give a damn how tired they are.

Damn straight. It's something I've conversed about with a couple of the covering writers, but they know Zumbo personally, they know what a great guy he is, they're friends. They want to cut him some slack. Hey, I understand. When friends of mine do dumb things...

But Zumbo can't be considered a "staunch" defender any longer. He misses the basic concept of the gun controllers. Sure, they'll be happy this year with the ARs and AKs. But next year? (as seen on their posts? Those insanely accurate sniper rifles!

jsid-1172159832-551387  DJ at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:57:12 +0000

And it appears that I can't spell "epithet".

jsid-1172162694-551392  markm at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:44:54 +0000

Zumbo called it right when he said he was "totally ignorant" about EBR's. He should have stopped there instead of opining about something he knows nothing about. Or educated himself before saying anything.

jsid-1172163748-551394  Kevin Baker at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:02:28 +0000

Yup. See the original fisking.

jsid-1172166475-551399  DirtCrashr at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:47:55 +0000

Zumbo reminds me a lot of California hunters and gun-owners who vote Democrat and supported the CA-AWB which is still in effect here.
If Mr. Zumbo is uncomfortable with AR's or AK's in a hunting-setting he should move here to California because they're outlawed and he won't see many to discomfort him - his recommendation is already in effect here.
We've also got a lead-bullet ban-bill currently in the Legislature, but Mr. Zumbo can no-doubt shoot those fancy solid-copper bullets he gets to test, and while there's one to criminalize lost or stolen guns he probably has a big expensive gun-safe and knows the right Cops and DA's. It's also expected that microstamping will return, but those long copper solids have plenty of room for all kinds of writing and maybe even a GPS so it's easier to find the buck he shot. I don't think there's anybody in the CA legislature who's afraid of a backlash from gun-owners, they're safe in gerrymandered districts on each side - safely ignoring us.

Other telling Zumbo-comments I've read in a variety of blog postings are hearsay, but related from people who've had exposure to Zumbo - not as comrade-writers or hunt-buddies but as peons to his Allmightyness, and that is the suite of Elitism fits him well.

I read Guns & Ammo, American Rifleman, Shooting Times, Guns, and American Handgunner. There's lots of stuff about hunting with AR's in them, mostly prairie dogs though - a small animal without horns or fangs, so most likely beneath Mr. Zumbo's attention. I haven't read Outdoor Life since I was a 14-year old Boy-Scout, and even then it was all about another world far away from where I lived and unrelated to my core experiences growing up among the University Elite Left.

jsid-1172170076-551404  molonlabe28 at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:47:56 +0000

I care more about what this old gentleman/hunter felt than what he said.

I don't wish him bad, but he should understand that he and the firearms community have almost nothing in common.

He is certainly no defender of gun rights and should more appropriately be aligned with the newly organized anti-gun AHSA (or whatever the name of the new Trojan horse anti-gun ownership organization is).

The guy likes wacking animals, but he certainly doesn't like most guns.

jsid-1172171775-551407  DirtCrashr at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:16:15 +0000

Cam Edwards just announced that the NRA Publications has suspended ties...here.
He's gonna have to move to California now...

jsid-1172172118-551409  The Other Mike S at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:21:58 +0000

Great post.

I, like DirtCrashr, live in the People's Republic of California. Worse yet, I'm in the Belly of The Beast, the SF Bay Area, home to Pelosi, Feinstein and Boxer (believe it or not, I'm a married, heterosexual male that owns guns...).

I fear the propaganda boost this will give the gun-grabbers. I have guys I shoot with on a regular basis that state, "the assault weapon ban isn't such a bad thing". When I ask them to describe, functionally, how they are bad and any semi-auto rifle is A-0kay.

It always comes down to intent. These guns are only made to kill people. I ask them, "since when is a gun able to determine how it is going to be used?"

Some see the light, others not so much.

jsid-1172176910-551411  Paul W at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:41:50 +0000

I was enraged at Zumbo's comments. I own an AR and an SKS, and an AK is on the way soon.

I don't hunt - never have, and probably never will. But I have defended the choice of people to do so, and the RIGHT of anyone who so chooses to be able to purchase and use all of the tools of their SPORT.

This post was phenomenal - it laid out everything from beginning to end. I agree with many commenters that Zumbo still doesn't get it, and this is a further cause for annoyance.

HOWEVER, there is in this very dark cloud (of Zumbo's creation, to the delight of anti-gun blissninnies and statists everywhere) a silver lining. It is not very thick, and it is quite tarnished, but it is there. What IS the silver lining? Zumbo freely admitted in his apology and other comments that he was (and still is) largely ignorant about ARs (and other EBRs). OK, fine - ignorance is no crime (though spouting off as if you know something about a subject when you don't, and when you damned well ought to know the effect of your statement is nearly unforgivable). He's said that he'll be learning about, hunting with and buying an AR. Good. Nuge will do for him what I do for ignorant fence-sitting newbies all the time - educate him. I can see forgiveness if Zumbo agrees - after really learning about not just the function of the AR and other "ugly" rifles, but also after learning about the purpose of the 2nd Amendment - to use his still good reputation with the hunting community to educate THEM, to help thousands or tens of thousands of pure hunters who still think like he did last week to realize and understand why so many people like "assault rifles," why such rifles - and the right to purchase them - are important for freedom in this country, and to educate them as to why hunters and other gun owners HAVE to stick together. If Zumbo can use this monumental screw-up to convert thousands of Fudds to the status of firearms rights defenders, then this will (IMHO) make sufficient amends. But he's got to DO it - merely apologizing or explaining won't do it.

It also wouldn't hurt to have him called before the House Judiciary Committee by some pro-gun member, and to testify as to his previous ignorance and his new-found realization of "The Truth" - and to let the Congresscritters know that they are at least as ignorant as he was, followed by an impassioned plea to let HR 1022 and any other anti-RKBA bills die.

When there is life, there is hope. Zumbo ain't dead, and he CAN make amends...he just has to try REAL hard.

jsid-1172178900-551412  bud at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:15:00 +0000

Zumbo was vulnerable because his employers were vulnerable to pressure from majors sponsors and advertisers. When the gun community spoke, they listened, and that was it.

Unfortunately, there is a large class of outdoor writers who, almost to a man, share his antipathy to anything that isn't wood stocked: those writing for local papers. I've locked horns in letter to the editor form with the "outdoor" writer on the local fishwrap, with zero effect. That is probably because the paper is, on their editorial page and in editorial influence, largely antigun. That is the rule, not the exception.

These guys are writers who hunt, not hunters who write, and their usual bullshit buddies are the leftists who infest the 4th estate. When they do wander out in the field, they certainly don't spend any time with the guy on the F&G refuge who uses a Rem 1100, it's on a private hunting area with other hunters who are using some expensive Italian over and under. They spout anti-handgun and anti-blackgun rhetoric as glibly as any Brady rep, and there isn't a damned thing that any of us can do about it because any gun-related advertising revenue is a miniscule part of their employer's total income.

BTW, add all the necessary adjectives when cursing this type of "hunter", since I like to call myself by that singular noun.

jsid-1172186169-551416  CAshane at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:16:09 +0000

Paul W's comment: "This post was phenomenal - it laid out everything from beginning to end."

I second that. Great work Kevin, thank you.

jsid-1172186352-551417  DirtCrashr at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:19:12 +0000

At least I understand one thing finally now, how here in California we can have all these great hunters and outdoorsmen and still have a ban on AR’s and AK's and on the long-range shooter's favorite the .50BMG - and also have a nationally-known Clowndome, an almost surreally-incompetent Bozo-Legislature, but one with no fear of a gunowner backlash - we’ve been Zumbofied. I wonder if he ever bothered to go to a voting booth, and which side he voted.

jsid-1172187283-551418  Kevin Baker at Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:34:43 +0000

Probably too busy hunting to vote.

jsid-1172191979-551422  jimmyb at Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:52:59 +0000

Great post.
Zumbo will be on our side more now than ever. He just has some serious penance to pay for his arrogance.

Great job, Kevin.
Are you going to make the Rendezvous II?

jsid-1172193026-551423  AA at Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:10:26 +0000

No writer financed through the gun industry should think banning ANY gun is a way to appease the anti-gun coalition. Further, a pledge should be made that they would support repealing all past encroachments upon the 2nd Amendment.

If allowing gun owners to be "divided and conquered" isn't the right thing now, it wasn't right when we gave in and allowed restrictions on fully automatic firearms either.

And unlike the Fudd's in the gun community, I truly don't give a damn if anyone hunts full auto.

jsid-1172197045-551426  6Kings at Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:17:25 +0000

Hunters seem to be the most apathetic self centered group of shooters I have ever run across. Unless the wetlands are threatened or public lands are being closed to hunting, they continue to vote (or not) for anti-gun politicians. They could care less about gun legislation as long as it doesn't affect their hunting habits and they to be the majority of gun owners. Calfornia is a sick as they come. I am glad I got out and moved to Texas! The second Amendment is the litmus test for any politician. If they are against guns, they sure as heck won't support the constitution in full or trust their constituents. That is quite telling.

jsid-1172354718-551507  Ironbear at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:05:18 +0000

*grin* So... how many of the people who nailed Zumbo to the wall are going to hold their noses and vote for Guilianni - and overlook his "unfortunate views on gun control"? ;)

jsid-1172356189-551509  Kevin Baker at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:29:49 +0000

Not me.

 Note: All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost; references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
 If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>