JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2007/02/petzal-logic.html (22 comments)

  Tentative mapping of comments to original article, corrections solicited.

jsid-1172305704-551485  FabioC. at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:28:24 +0000

Also, I don't understand this obsession with "guns designed to kills people".

What was the 1911 designed for? Or cannot a rifle designed to kill deer also kill people? A Dragunov is highly accurate regardless of the target.

Ultimately, all firearms are potentially lethal, even the competition Beretta .22LR I shoot at the range.

jsid-1172320680-551486  Kevin Baker at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:38:00 +0000

Yes, but I bet that it's not ugly.

jsid-1172328155-551491  HerrMorgenholz at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:42:35 +0000

Might I suggest something?

Most of my firearms are shotguns and bolt-action rifles, and a smattering of handguns. I also own an AK clone, lobbied against the 94 scarygun ban, and staunchly defend all gun owner's rights.

That said, I am a hunter, and it is a passion to me. This constant use of the term "Fudds" pisses me off, frankly, and only contributes to the divide between the shooters and the hunters. There are some hunters who do deride EBRs, but I've also seen their asses handed to them verbally over many a campfire by my fellow "Fudds". There are a few Petzals and Zumbos in every crowd, but they are heavily outnumbered among hunters.

Just stop with the name-calling. We generally don't do it to the "shooter" types, and it is not in any way helpful.

My .02.

jsid-1172329411-551494  Kevin Baker at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:03:31 +0000


The term "Fudd" is exclusively limited to that group of hunters/clay shooters/benchresters/etc. that believe that only "sporting purpose" firearms ought to be protected by the Second Amendment. You are not among that crowd, and thus are not a Fudd.

I'm glad you're passionate about your sport, but it would be helpful if you would attempt to educate the Fudds you are exposed to as to the real reason the Second Amendment exists, and why they ought to defend the right to own weapons they themselves have no desire to posess.

The problem I see is that the EBR crowd is threatening to stop supporting the rights of hunters - and that is every bit as inexcusable as the Fudds and their "you don't need a 30-round clip to hunt a deer" bullshit.

Define the problem: You are aware of people willing to throw AR and AK owners under the bus in the vain attempt to save their "bambi-zappers." Educate them. Make them understand we must all hang together, or we will certainly all hang separately.

jsid-1172331251-551495  thirdpower at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:34:11 +0000

Just like the Brady's, he went on about "lots of people want them banned". I guess none of those people voted in the next elections then.

To HerrMorgenholz:

I understand the term "Fudd" may be thrown around a little to often. I'ld never heard it before the other day but understood the reference quickly. As you say, the majority of hunters don't denigrate shooters w/ insulting terms just as most shooters don't insult hunters. However, looking at the elitist and insulting comments made by the "professionals"(Petzal and Zumbo), the "Fudds" if you will, on the blogs and you can understand where a lot of the frustration comes in.

jsid-1172331721-551497  DJ at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:42:01 +0000

Kevin, you are correct, but HerrMorgenholz has a point. To say You are not among that crowd, and thus are not a Fudd, while true, doesn't quite get rid of the complaint of name calling, unless using such names comes damned nearly ever time with a disclaimer and a dictionary. The great problem with name-calling is that the callee sees or hears the name, jumps to a conclusion, gets his dander up, and then a "meeting of the minds" doesn't happen.

Your notion of make them understand we must all hang together, or we will certainly all hang separately" is indeed the goal and "educate them" is indeed the the method. But, a wedge that we drive within our own ranks will bite us. Be careful you don't let anger sharpen or drive that wedge.

I once stopped a "compromiser" in his tracks one day at the range way back during the Jimmie Carter era. I simply pointed out to him that, if someone who believes in gun rights compromises with someone who doesn't, the one who believes in gun rights loses something and the one who doesn't gains something. If that continues, the one who believes in gun rights eventually loses everything and the one who doesn't gains everything. The Chinese call this the "death of a thousand cuts". I call it "eating and elephant, one bite at a time." I won't go down that road because I don't want to go where that road goes.

jsid-1172335938-551499  BobG at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:52:18 +0000

"As you say, the majority of hunters don't denigrate shooters w/ insulting terms just as most shooters don't insult hunters."

Actually, shooters DO have derogatory terms for some shooters; they make fun of the ones who make them gun owners look bad. Examples: mall ninja, armchair commando, etc. The fact is, the hunters THEMSELVES should be coming down on the Fudds.
Just my opinion.

jsid-1172336177-551500  Cindi at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:56:17 +0000

Calling 'em Fudds must strike home in some way or it wouldn't make 'em mad; nevertheless, a moratorium on a general, rather than specific, application might make sense for now since we appear to have made our point.

As for me, I would like to see some specific vehicles banned: they kill people and they're ugly. SUVs, for example; too-often black and very often ugly, and most every report reads "the SUV went out of control". What we have here is too many SUVs going rogue and having crashes, running into trees and killing people all on their own. They're too big, they use too much gas, no one really NEEDS one anyhow.

jsid-1172336315-551501  Cindi at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:58:35 +0000

Oh, and Petzal's a putz'l.

jsid-1172346938-551505  LabRat at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:55:38 +0000

Pretty much why I don't really care for the term... it's ACCURATE in many cases, and I can see EXACTLY where it comes from, but I can say the same thing about "redneck".

It's not like it makes me mad exactly, I've just been seen it thrown around more than a trifle too freely... hunters and shooters shouldn't be us-n-them unless someone identifiably steps up to have a crack at it. Like Zumbo.

jsid-1172359300-551511  HerrMorgenholz at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:21:40 +0000

I struck a nerve, and got a rather snarky comment from Kevin in his email to me, which was his comment above, plus the following:

"Read a few more of my posts than just the one you commented on."

--Kevin did not ask me to not reveal this private part of the e-mail, and I see it as fair game. I DO understand internet etiquette. Besides, it's a throw away comment---

Kevin, I've read you periodically for years, and have always agreed with you, and in fact corresponded with you briefly a couple years ago under a different internet nom de plume. And yet you did not address the diviseness of the "Fudds" thing. You exacerbated it.

I AM a "Fudd", despite your assertions to the contrary. I hunt, and hunt passionately, and I'm sure as hell not going to apologize about it to anybody. NO! Not all hunters are EBR owners. NO! They don't all agree that a good weekend involves 1000 rounds. They also, generally, don't have a problem if you do.

I said generally, and I mean it. I've seen them, talked to them, and left them.

But so have most of the "Fudds". Quit dividing US!

And there is an US far more important than you "dry-fly" enthusiast types.

jsid-1172359615-551512  HerrMorgenholz at Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:26:55 +0000

Goddamit, Kevin, you don't have an edit function on this POS!

(No, but it does have "Preview.") - KB

I maybe was a bit harsh, but this whole Fudd-Shooter discussion is getting harsh, and as several commenters alluded, we don't need that shit. We have a common goal (aside from the Zumbo/Petzal assclowns), and mature men can find a way to make it happen.

I suggest we find a way to do it.

jsid-1172365950-551513  fits at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 01:12:30 +0000

We SHOULD learn to play nice and who really cares how one kills the wabbit as long as the recipe is topnotch.

jsid-1172370812-551515  HerrMorgenholz at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:33:32 +0000

Thanks, fits, that was helpful.

(Garlic. Lots of Garlic).

jsid-1172392820-551523  Mastiff at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:40:20 +0000

Kevin, I've been reading you for several years now. This is the first time, I think, that your anger is getting in the way of your persuasiveness.

I completely agree with your position (it's easy for me, since I don't hunt and do have an interest in deterring tyranny). But your responses are becoming more heated than perhaps you want them to be.

If you want to avoid driving the wedge in deeper, you need to take a few slow, cleansing breaths right now. Too much jerk on the trigger pull, if you get my meaning.

jsid-1172395350-551525  Wince and Nod at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:22:30 +0000

Something of a side note. The Constitution DOES protect the right to hunt. See the Ninth Amendment, not the Second.

What Kevin has learned, however, is that nothing can protect the Constitution from the majority.


jsid-1172418481-551530  Kevin Baker at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:48:01 +0000

I learned that a long time ago, Wince. See the six-part series on the sidebar there - "What is a Right?"

jsid-1172422777-551534  damaged justice at Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:59:37 +0000

Just to note that etymologically, "Fudd" probably comes as much from the acronym FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) as it does the famous bumbling cartoon hunter.

jsid-1172457503-551551  jstanley01 at Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:38:23 +0000

At the risk of exacerbating the divisions in the "gun community": OMG ..."bambi zapper"... ROFLMAO!

Hey, I'm all for hunting. Some of the best times this city boy had out-of-doors growing up was walking fields in Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri, with my brother and my Dad, on the hunt for upland birds. But there's always been something a little wierd to me about folks who lie in wait in a blind until some large clueless mammal wanders within range of their high-powered rifle.

It doesn't surprise me that they're the types willing to throw their compatriots "out of the sleigh, hoping that the wolves would be satisfied."

Slaughter-house workers feed people. Military snipers kill the enemies of our country. Me, with my paratroop-stocked M-1 Carbine and plenty of clips, I'm ready to defend my home and my family. And the Fudd's are defending...err...what? Their "sport"?

Give me a break.

jsid-1172479373-551556  FabioC. at Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:42:53 +0000

This "Fudd Controversy" reminds me of Euroweenie and similar name-calling.

I'm sure there are Americans who have in mind a clear distinction between Euroweenies and regular Europeans; I am also sure that some freaks want to see mass-death this side of the Pond.

jsid-1172505233-551563  Unix-Jedi at Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:53:53 +0000


Want to? No. Not really.

But look at it from my standpoint. The Europeans I know sneer at me - personally. Insult my country, my land, my culture, my ethics.

Deride me for not having a welfare safety net, and paid-for medical, while sneering that we spend all the US money on guns. (Forgetting the reason they can afford those social programs, as much as they can, (and it's starting to bankrupt them anyway)) is the US military subsidizing/taking over their obligations.

And today, I read that apparently, we're going to deploy our Ballistic Missile defences on the Continent. Because the Euros are quietly coming to the realization that those Iranians are about to be able to nuke them.

These same Euros who for 20 damn years, insulted the US for pursing it, called the US warmongering... You know what I mean.

And again, now that they're facing a real problem, we're going to bail 'em out - and we'll get insulted for it. Sneered at. "Oh, you cowboys, with your ballistic missile defense, you're CAUSING Iran to upgrade it's missiles! It's YOUR FAULT!".

Sorry Fabio, I don't *really* want to see Europe nuked. No, honestly, I don't. But damn if I don't think it might get some people's heads out of their asses and reaccess the situation.

It's only tempered by the fact that I know the first target of blame would BE the US. Because we 'caused' it, and didn't stop it, and well, because the root of all problems are those damn Americans!

jsid-1172511632-551572  FabioC. at Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:40:32 +0000

See what I mean...

No, really... I have nothing personally against you, Unix-Jedi. and my skin has grown thicker lately.

But I used to be a regular on LittleGreenFootballs; do a search there for bigel and to a lesser extent AmericanInfidel and you'll understand.

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