JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2006/01/you-must-read-mark-steyn.html (28 comments)

  Tentative mapping of comments to original article, corrections solicited.

jsid-1136445893-338321  Tex at Thu, 05 Jan 2006 07:24:53 +0000

Read excerpts from this to my wife earlier tonight and told her to read the whole thing. Awesome article that I am sending to anyone with half a brain. Why am I surprised that you have already linked to it?

jsid-1136465891-249896  Trackback at Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:58:11 +0000

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Title: Guns, guts and babies
Excerpt: With Kevin Baker back and blogging, the Posse is ready to respond to his response to our response to his column. For those not minded to hit all those links, we will summarize. Kevin's contention is that the disconnect from
Blog name: Posse Incitatus

jsid-1136470119-338357  EARL at Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:08:39 +0000

It has always been the tribe, nation or cultural enity with excess males for expansion and conquest that win wars, and the civilization without the same type and number of males will fall. Keep the women breeding and nuturing and you too can have enough to send your very best... It is really too late to change our future, but our children's is even darker.

jsid-1136490215-338426  Scott H at Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:43:35 +0000

Lileks rocks! Thanks for the link. I especially liked Saddam's new children's book in the article below, "Goodnight Moon as well as Your Accursed Family".

jsid-1136526361-338497  Engineer-Poet at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 05:46:01 +0000

IMHO, the problem is socialism in general; expecting everyone else to take care of making the next generation.

We've got the same problem with Socialist Insecurity.

jsid-1136580444-338589  tomWright at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:47:24 +0000

Het, I am 47 and no kids or wife.

I am perfectly willing to breed my brains out, if society will treat me like a normal person and not a felon when the inevitable divorce happens.

When women stop demanding I act like a cross between Sean Connery and Richard Simmons.

When I can raise a family on one income, instead of the two it now takes, because of the taxes.

When I can have some choice and input into my kids education, without having to genuflect to some religious school or scrape and beg before some teachers union.

Looks like the genes stop here.

jsid-1136580764-338591  Property of the State at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:52:44 +0000

I'm with you tomWright. I'm 41. Never been married. No kids. Will probably never do either. As long as we live in a matriarchy where women have all the rights and men have all the responsibilities I won't be changing my mind.

Long live the marriage strike!

jsid-1136581655-338594  Kevin Baker at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:07:35 +0000

Yeah, I think I'll be writing an essay on reproduction decline in affluent societies this weekend.

jsid-1136587162-338604  ben at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:39:22 +0000

Seems awfully cruel to have kids if you don't believe in God (or something). What's the point of bringing new people into the world who will suffer and die for nothing?

jsid-1136588687-338606  Kevin Baker at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:04:47 +0000


Because they can take care of you in your old age?

(Just a thought.)

jsid-1136589527-338608  Sarah at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:18:47 +0000

Yes, Kevin, but isn't that rather selfish, almost to the point of sociopathy?

tom, there is an alternative wrt education that requires neither genuflecting nor scraping, but it takes some effort: homeschooling.

jsid-1136590458-338609  Kevin Baker at Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:34:18 +0000

I'll discuss this in the weekend piece, Sarah.

jsid-1136622618-338647  Joel Donelson at Sat, 07 Jan 2006 08:30:18 +0000

Inevitable divorce?

Well, if one enters into marriage with that as the guidepost, I suppose it would be.

Sounds like the flip-side of a pre-nup to me.


jsid-1136642310-338652  savage24 at Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:58:30 +0000

tomWright and Property of the State, I'm with you. 40 years old, never married, no kids. Long live the marriage strike.

"Falling in Love is nature's way of tricking us into reproducing."
-M. Scott Peck

jsid-1136665425-338682  tomWright at Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:23:45 +0000

Sarah, Yah, home schooling is an option, but still tough since it requires one parent to essentially give up earning income in most, though not all cases. But still a good point.

Kevin, I look forward to it. Bound to be interesting coming from you.

Joel, just the facts. it is about 50/50 in most societies, so probably inevitable for me, being an introverted misanthropic loner who is about as non-richard-simmons like as one can get. (though i did shave my legs for a few years...but you do not need to know that)

ben, stop trolling. continue this over at Jeff's place if you want. Spreading it to other sites just confuses things.

jsid-1136760951-338816  Kevin Baker at Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:55:51 +0000


It ain't coming.

Later, maybe.

jsid-1136764136-338818  Sarah at Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:48:56 +0000


Why don't we leave it to Kevin to decide who's trolling. Ben is my bro, and I know the point he's trying to make and how it ties into the topic. For religious folks, bringing children into a world that is often fraught with cruelty and suffering serves a purpose. On the other hand, I personally know people who don't believe in God and an afterlife who think it's cruel to bring new life into this world, and so they remain childless. It's a logical reaction for any atheist who understands the relative nature of physical existence, and could very well be a contributing factor to low reproductive rates amongst secular types.

jsid-1136782834-338844  Kevin Baker at Mon, 09 Jan 2006 05:00:34 +0000

A contributing factor, yes.

How big a contributing factor, no one can really guess.

Which is one of the reasons writing this essay is so damned hard.

jsid-1136822045-338896  Sarah at Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:54:05 +0000

I'm not convinced it's a huge factor, either, Kevin. Mostly because I don't think most atheists have thought things through to that point. But I think Ben's looking at it from that point of view. (Tell me if I'm wrong, bro.)

jsid-1136865146-339017  Property of the State at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 03:52:26 +0000

I'm an athiest. I have thought things thru. I decided by the time I left high skool never to get married or have kids. I'm 41 now.


Two reasons. I'll try and be brief.

Reason #1: I grew up on a street in California with 8 families that had kids about the age of me or my brother (he's 2 1/2 years older). We all grew up and went to skool together. By the time I was 17 my parents got divorced. They were the last of all the 8 divorces. All the divorces were started by the mother. I figured what a fine example of "till death do us part." I thought, as a man, what's in it for me? Nothing. Except a loss of freedom, big bills, and a lot of heartache. Nothing in marriage that I can't get otherwise. Why invite the state into it?

Reason #2: I thought why bring kids into a country that is so screwed up? I was taught we live in a "free" country. We don't. Not even close. Why inflict that on the innocent? I didn't have it in me to force them to deal with it. I do think of bringing kids into this world as a form of child abuse. We and "our" children are just property of the state. It owns us.

Epilogue: I've lost count of how many men I have met over the years that are finally getting wise to the system. And dropping out in various ways. "The West" as it is currently constituted deserves to die. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

jsid-1136869906-339023  Kevin Baker at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:11:46 +0000

Well! Wasn't that cheerful?

Thank you for the data point.

jsid-1136874401-339029  Sarah at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:26:41 +0000

Thank God I found what seems to have been the last man under 80 who hasn't given up on Western Civilization. Though, to be fair, if I were a non-Christian man these days I'd seriously be considering the Jeremiah Johnson lifestyle. Most women drive me nuts.

jsid-1136904015-339075  geekwitha.45 at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:40:15 +0000

The people who haven't given up on Western Civ ARE Western Civ.

They rest....well...classify them as you see fit.

jsid-1136905918-339084  Engineer-Poet at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:11:58 +0000

I'm far more favorably inclined toward Western Civ than anything else, and life is good with or without a deity.

What I don't care for is the legal minefield that fatherhood has become.  This is mostly due to changes in the last 30-40 years; if we get things like the burden of divorce going to the party which demands it, criminal sanctions for people who make false accusations of abuse (and the attorneys who suborn such accusations) and other protections for the innocent, you'll see a lot less reluctance.

jsid-1136925366-339161  LabRat at Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:36:06 +0000


I'm an atheist, a misanthrope, and a child of divorce, and right now I feel like a freakish outpost of fondness for the opposite sex and confidence in the ability of people to form a family without everything going down in flaming rubble.

I don't have kids, but it has a lot less to do with the notion of bringing new life into the world being "cruel" than a notion that I, personally, would probably not be a great parent.

jsid-1136954189-339232  Kevin Baker at Wed, 11 Jan 2006 04:36:29 +0000

I cannot imagine the number of third-world adults who would even consider the question of their fitness as parents before slamming their gametes together willy-nilly.

I'm personally convinced that active consideration of that question is a not insignificant contributor to the reduction of birthrates in affluent societies.

Problem is, even in affluent societies, the people who ought to consider it, rarely do, and slam their gametes together willy-nilly anyway. They just have the option of abortion to terminate the resultant zygotes.

jsid-1136996596-339296  markm at Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:23:16 +0000

And the people who most of all shouldn't reproduce don't get those abortions - because they cost a little money, while each out-of-wedlock baby increases the welfare check.

jsid-1137003222-339341  Captain Holly at Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:13:42 +0000

As the father of 4 children who has been married to the same woman for 17 years, I guess I'm what would be called an expert in this field.

While I'm sympathetic to complaints about the female-centric nature of our divorce laws, fatherhood is not the legal minefield that it is portrayed to be IF you marry the right woman.

The problem is, too many men don't marry the right woman, and quite frankly don't even know how to find her.

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